Does forgiveness of sin come through blood shedding?

[jpurssey]

Firefox and other browsers (I haven't used IE for a long while) allow spell-checking, and you can use a language dictionary of your choice, though I always use the British English Dictionary as the the Australian English dictionaries mistakenly think Australian English is virtually American English.

If you read and correct after posting you can remove the bold UBB code after you have checked/corrected. Many browsers allow you to view with an increased font size, so they would make checking easier. It seems to me that you are technically proficient in using computers.

[Stephen Rodgers]

As I live in 3 different places this particular location has my old faithful Windows 98, which does not permit firefox or any browser enhancers.Apart from that it causes me the least angst. The old XP I find even better than Vista, but must admit windows 7 is very good, though some love Apple.

I think one must be aware not every one is using the same system, or have the same competence, so we need some tolerance do you not think? I would suggest instead of critiscising members of this board openly it would be better by private message first, that is what I do as a moderator.If they then refuse to change that is different.But I have never had any problems...I let another do it for me without the intervention of the human hand, except for spam.If the ministry is right all falls into perfect accord, everything is seen to and all is accounted for.

But above all we should demonstrate that same love and grace that I trust we have noticed in Christ our Lord.

[Elizabeth]

Would it be improper to suggest if a board is too restrictive or neurotic, it will kill the spirit within its (it's) borders? If so, I withdraw my comments.

Then we have the tight brethren people becoming annoyed and saying that this board is nothing but a free for all and that only PB people should be allowed to post here.

I think John is trying to intoduce some conformity to standards. The "all caps" posts are universally seen as "yelling" at the recipients, so that is considered unacceptable. If I received $1 every spellng or grammatical error I see on this board, I would be a millionaire.

its is the possessive, it's is the short form for it is.
inserted comma after If so because it is an inverted sentence.

If you want me to give grammar and spelling instructions, I can do that. I really don't think it is my role as site admin. to offer public school instruction as well as Miss Manners lessons.

Only by grace,

Elizabeth

[Stephen Rodgers]

On another board we have a 91 y.o. retired English Teacher, but it is obvious no one notices her perfect grammar and spelling, for so few return the favour.But then she is retired, and the others mostly have busy lives to live and probably like me, hated grammar at school. Yet she has the spirit of a 12 y.o. girl and openly admits she is stopped being a fundamentalist christian in the last 10 years, and moves only in the spirit of love and grace to all, overlooking all their faults. I loved my American English Teacher at school,she was very easy on grammar, but the English one must have had a very hard time, in his early toilet training, methinks.

But have we not Elizabeth, forgiveness in His blood for spelling and grammar errors? Do we have a tolerant Master that only looks at the heart and not the mind? Who knows all our faults and above all our IGNORANCE? Who blazed the way for all of us, in forgiving those who crucified Him, so we too may forgive those who trespass against us, that is what the blood of Christ means to me........my ability to forgive others, overlook their faults.Otherwise there is no power in that blood.

If we do not forgive others we also have no forgiveness of our sins.
The blood of Christ for which we have forgiveness of sins, then becomes a lie on our lips...and like the blood of Abel cries out against us!

Self- deception uncovered is better than a host of ideals nurtured. In the truth of one's own falsehood, there lies real progress, not in one's virtues which are but filthy rags.

[jpurssey]

The mute button is my friend. I use it to ignore adverts, especially the shouting ones.

If people are shouting I wait for them to resume normal speech before continuing an exchange.

If posts are 'shouting' then I tend to gloss over them. I am not alone in this. If posters wish to communicate then they need to learn what will disconnect them from the other board members.

[Keith Sherwood]

Shed blood is always sprinkled in rememberance that an innocent and perfect animal was the substitute for those or the person who had offered it or for the congregation

Of course Christ is our substitute we can be associated with for he ever lives.

Calvarys merit was that in the deepest trial, with all protection removed, Satan through wicked men emptied his arsenal agains the Lord. But the Lord did not sin even in this awful testing. When Satan and man had done all - we still had the perfect son of God and man on the cross and a perfect one entered into death, rose from the dead and ascends into heaven in a gentle manner with all there watching - so amazed that they remained looking up even though he was out of sight. He entered into heaven by His owm blood. That is the memorial of His death for us, bearing our sins for us, on Calvary

In the millenial temple, animal sacrifice is reinstated, I assume in memorial of the death of Christ

There is nothing wrong in saying I am saved by the blood of Christ, for it speeks of his death for me


Keith

[Elizabeth]

Thanks, Keith, for bringing this thread back On Topic.

Come, ye sinners, lost and hopeless,
Jesus’ blood can make you free;
For He saved the worst among you,
When He saved a wretch like me.

Refrain
And I know, yes, I know
Jesus’ blood can make the vilest sinner clean,
And I know, yes, I know
Jesus’ blood can make the vilest sinner clean.

To the faint He giveth power,
Through the mountains makes a way;
Findeth water in the desert,
Turns the night to golden day.

Refrain
And I know, yes, I know
Jesus’ blood can make the vilest sinner clean,
And I know, yes, I know
Jesus’ blood can make the vilest sinner clean.

In temptation He is near thee,
Holds the pow’rs of hell at bay;
Guides you to the path of safety,
Gives you grace for ev’ry day.

Refrain
And I know, yes, I know
Jesus’ blood can make the vilest sinner clean,
And I know, yes, I know
Jesus’ blood can make the vilest sinner clean.

He will keep thee while the ages
Roll throughout eternity;
Though earth hinders and hell rages,
All must work for good to thee.

Refrain
And I know, yes, I know
Jesus’ blood can make the vilest sinner clean,
And I know, yes, I know
Jesus’ blood can make the vilest sinner clean.

[Keith Sherwood]

Margaret Conibeer - went to be with the Lord on the 13th of July, the funeral was well attended, there are not many you meet like Margaret
For thirteen years, she was what I think today is called sectioned and should never have been. Certainly her mind did not work so well and her reason was often mixed with imagination. She was in all these trials, a bright witness to Christ and a kind gentle person. There were others who went about together and Margaret was the catalyst. A friend to Rosemary and I, often on the phone to speak to me or laterly my wife, as I can not hear too well - She used to play the piano in the Watford meeting for years until it closed. In recent time she went to Derby Rd Baptist church and the assistant pastor there took great care for her - in delivering the Eulogy he had to stop several times as deep emotion was affecting his ability to speak. He made the point that Margaret told everyone about the Lord she loved

The sevice started with a Hymn that was her choice

When Peace like a river, attends all my way
When sorrows like sea billows roll
Whatever my path, You have taught me to say.

It is well with my soul

Though Satan mayv buffet, though trials may come
Let this calm assurance control
that Christ knows mt need and my helplessness here,
and has shed His own blood for my soul

It is well with my soul

The joy, Oh the joy of this glorious thought!
My sin, not the part but the whole
is nailed to the cross, and I bear it know more
No fear shall be mine, for in death as in life
You will whisper Your peace to my soul

It is well with my soul.

But Lord for your coming in glory we wait;
the sky not the grave is our goal;
the trumpet shall sound, and the Lord shall descend,
bless the Lord, bless the Lord, O my soul

It is well with my soul

[Elizabeth]

Dear Magog99,

Members were asked in a previous post to PM administration should they have a problem with other members. It is a simple "do unto others" rule, if you follow me.

Only by grace,

Elizabeth

[Stephen Rodgers]

Yes it is great to get back on track. The first question we must ask is: "what is sin?" No point in talking about the blood of Christ until one defines what sin is. This is the primary quesion God asked long ago, let us go back to Adam in the Garden of Eden: "Who told you that you were naked?"

Answer: Man's own consciousness of guilt. So, from then on man has sought out a way to rid himself of his guilty consciousness.It is overpowering.

The inspired writer of the Book TO The Hebrews said that under the law ALMOST everything had to be cleansed with blood: " almost all things are BY THE LAW purged with blood; even without the shedding of blood is no remission." Heb. 9:22 God Himself did not require any sacrifices...in fact, the prophets who told the people that God saw no justice in the continual animal sacrifice, and shedding of Innocent blood, were killed and became martyrs....by the very ones who killed them - how ironic is that.

But it has become human nature since Cain, to attack the innocent and say it was self defence. For instance, there are far more civilian deaths in Irak and Afghanistan than soldiers, the same with all wars.

Jesus became the fulfillment of "law"........God's law, moral law, religious law, judicial law, civil law,you name it. Therefore, there is no more condemnation [guilty conciousness towards God], to those who are in Christ Jesus. Jesus fulfilled everything that man said that man could not do.........He did it.His life is a model for all of us, yes the blood may forgive those who call upon it, but if they do not walk His Life........they have no real life.

You cannot have eternal life of your own outside of His Body.True salvation is then corporate not individual.

Man has since the very beginning been trying to figure out what is "sin"....and they've come up with all sorts of answers from drinking alcohol, eating pork, to walking more than 50 steps on the Sabbath.I think there are about 613 commandments all up.My memory could not contain them all.No doubt that justified the Pharisees existence. But to God sin is simply that all men have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God."

Man sins because he has not yet arrived at the Glory of God in Christ, hence salvation forgiveness of sins can only happen when you pass into His open side, become part of Him.......Eve the Bride returning home.

This may seem to be a little too trite to some, but hope this helps.

[Elizabeth]

The inspired writer of the Book TO The Hebrews said that under the law ALMOST everything had to be cleansed with blood: " almost all things are BY THE LAW purged with blood; even without the shedding of blood is no remission." Heb. 9:22 God Himself did not require any sacrifices...in fact, the prophets who told the people that God saw no justice in the continual animal sacrifice, and shedding of Innocent blood, were killed and became martyrs....by the very ones who killed them - how ironic is that.

You cannot have eternal life of your own outside of His Body.True salvation is then corporate not individual.

Dear Bro. Stephen,

I have a headache, so can not delve into the above two remarks:

(a) God does not require any sacrifice.
(b) Salvation is corporate and not individual

Both statements are wrong and not according to scripture as I read the scriptures - but then I have a headache.

Only by grace,

Elizabeth

[Stephen Rodgers]

True salvation" the term I used was that which goes beyond the normal idea of salvation, it involves becoming "partaker of the Divine Nature" that can only be in Wholeness and Unity.How can we be whole, [salvation means wholeness] outside of the Body of Christ? Did the Israelites walk out of Egypt one at a time?

The sacrifice I am referring to apart from the Prophets, whose very blood were shed under the altars, is the blood one of the Cross outside of Jerusalem, outside of any altars, outside the true sanctuary which is in heaven, without a High Priest or a sacrifial knife but rather a Roman soldier and a spear.Is this the blood that was shed in Hebrews Chapter 9, for there is no mention of a Cross in that Chapter. Even in Hebrews 12:2 it only says "He endured the Cross, despising the shame,then the writer says: "Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin" and then goes onto to say if you are not chastised then you are a bastard. Sin consciousness was therefore a necessary ingredient to become a Son of God.
So it says "He hath MADE HIM who knew no sin, to be sin for us." 2 Cor.5:21

I am not referring to the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world,or the paschall lamb that aso looks back to that too,for the blood that was shed in the true sanctuary by the true Priest: Christ, was also through the eternal Spirit not a Roman soldier. AS the inspired writer of the Book to the Hebrews said: "If He were on earth he could not be a priest." Heb.8:4

Is it possible that Christians still read their Bibles through the filters borrowed from Rome the Great Harlot....which is bloody in tooth and claw? Which also has shed the blood of millions of saints since the Cross.This time humans and not animals.When will man's blood thirsty nature stop?
Not even the Cross stopped it. There are serious questions to be asked, do we have the spiritual fortitude to ask! And if we do not, how can Holy Spirit answer? Or shall we sin against the Holy Spirit and turn to men for an answer? And then reap a Christianity full of divisions? Or shall we enter the Mystical Body of Christ?

Now trying to resolve the above questions.... yes, that once gave me a great head ache and a huge heart ache.I could once, only look at Scripture through the eyes of Brethren leaders and their interpretations.Or instant expulsion.
It was not..........
Until the still small voice of Holy Spirit resolved it from the Bible itself.But I had to throw out all the false teachings of men about the Bible.Like I had to get out of Exclusive Brethren.......fast. What a headache their lies gave me, and their Popish leaders.

There is only One Teacher whose Spirit resides in our heart, and will teach real truth directly, if you will but turn around from those other teachers.
Forget what I say, just listen to the Holy Spirit NOW.

Anyhow headaches soon go, but only by grace can Spirit come.

Love Stephen

[Stephen Rodgers]

Let one humbly suggest the possibilities of the Truth in the Bible are infinite and that Truth itself is infinite.Yes this subject matter seems complex, it really is not, though no doubt others could make it plainer. The resistance we have here, I suggest, is from being told we already have the truth. Now apologetics means a sytematic defence of the truth. Who could imagine that could be done, without some long winded posts? The Bible is not a book of a few words, or even a few writers.It would also be great if some well fielded balls came one's way, aimed at the wicket not the fences, to keep us all on target.

Should our defence be like that of the Laodiceans we are rich and have need of nothing? As if truth was something tangible, like a chair we could sit comfortably in? Let one suggest, that this same chair we are so comfortable with, could it the same that Paul speaks of: "seated with Christ in the heavenly places?" That is not future tense!

I thought when I was in Brethren I pretty much knew the Bible from cover to cover.I had been at times challenged by some very thoughtful people in open air preachings.I really could not give them an answer, there was too much uncomfortable hard brethren tapestry on my chair. I felt like Rachel who had hidden Labor's teraphim in her dogma baggage, I had been caught out! I knew I was lacking something vital, even back then. I was soon to realise this Book the Bible was the Book of all books, it was about knowing the only true God and His Son and their infinite possibilities in the Human race...of eternal life!This Book deserved respect and intelligent defence!

Yes it was about going on a grand voyage of discovery, discovering God in every aspect of one's life.It was about the great Mystery of piety...."God manifest in flesh".

When did God manifest in flesh first? Let one suggest it was with the first Adam. [Remembering Christ is the first and last and that the last Adam appears on the fourth day/millenium Gen.1 , as the Sun/Son of God, the true light of the world].And was not "God in the beginning" was the Progenitor, the ontological Subject of all as the Father, "to us there is one God the Father out of whom are all things", prior to to the Son. "My Father is greater than I" it was also the Son that said: "He doeth the works" ....so who then went to the Cross?

What is really meant when Paul in Acts 20:28 said: "Which the Holy Ghost, hath made you overseers, to feed the ekklessia of God, which He has purchased with His own Blood?" And also another who said: "who through the eternal Spirit, offered Himself without spot to God"...would that not also suggest the timeless nature of this sacrifice and the unbreakable union of absolute Deity..."I and My Father are One".

Let one suggest then, that true foreknowledge of the Lamb slain, is not confined to any place in space and time.That God's sacrifices are infinite, beyond the ken of finite mind.The real ontological fact is that God bled forth the Universe out of His own Being...and that it is His Spirit that weaves the whole fabric of the Universe, the warp and the weft, into the perfect harmony of Psalm 19....all this from the Lamb that was slain, before the foundation of the world.How else could God make the Universe out of His own Being that Paul states?

Let one suggest the world itself cannot contain the books about this grand theme of the Son and who works through Him.It is rather about infinite possibilities.And ultimately you, in becoming a "partaker of the Divine Nature." Let one suggest you cannot become a partaker of the Divine Nature without Divine blood, can any here see now the Glory of God's Life that shines as a supreme noumenon at the Cross of universal reconciliation, that even made the 6 hours of darkness bleed eternal light forever over mankind?

Would it be incredible to suggest, "Adam" means "blood of God" "A" being for "Adonia" and "dam" for blood. How did Adam get the blood of the Lord? Was it from the dust, was it from the breath? And what happened to Adam when he was made as it says: "Male and female, created He him" when later the female part was taken out of His side? Was not all this during the great sleep God placed on man.......has mankind really woken up since, let one suggest the real waking up was like the Sun appearing on the fourth Day/Millennium? The Cross then is the very crossroad out of this dream of the world man has slumbered in so long like Cain who went out of Eden into the Land of Nod. The Cross of Christ then gives you the very co-ordinates I suggest of passing over the Jordan, into the Land of the Living who are awake.

Now remember, interesting word this REmember, that what Luke wrote in his Gospel of the blood line of God:[no mention of Cain in the Land of Nod] "Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of ADAM, which was the SON OF GOD."


Was it not during Adam's dream, and surely all men have participated in this dream of this world,["in Adam all die"/sleep] falling short of the real the Kingdom of God? [ a world that Tolstoy called a "terrible nightmare, from which one must awake"] So Adam and Scriptures views all mankind in Adam fell short of reality,totally missing the mark. How did this take place? Let one suggest it started when God opened up Adam's side, which suggest's also another great truth: "the Lamb that was slain," [for death in Scripture is considered sleep] referred to Adam losing his feminine part and the rest of the Bible, is HIStory, the story of this female part becoming again "bone of His Bone, and flesh of His flesh"....which is exactly why Paul called this a "great mystery?"

Is not the Holy Spirit's work here to bring us back to Christ as One?


Please understand one is only humbly suggesting what has been presented albeit crudely, maybe one of the greatest truths overlooked? The mystery of the shed blood goes far deeper than first thought, I would dare suggest.
What great truth has Christendom lost, that so plunged it into the dark ages and then into mass schism? Perhaps individual salvation? Salvation of the old nature? Can the old man be saved?And if it was would it not fall into bitter divisions? Amass huge fortunes? Or can we only be saved by joining the great august Body of Christ, that comes out collectively out of Egypt? That we can only have salvation in Christ and not in one's self?

"Who is this that cometh up from the wilderness, leaning upon her beloved?"

[Keith Sherwood]

Stephen did you not try to suggest in other posts that there was no actual fist man called Adam

Keith

[Stephen Rodgers]

Let one suggest Keith as I have at other times, that Christ is the first and last Adam, "the alpha and Omega," also "the beginning of the creation of God." Scripture also says: "in Adam all die" and that when Christ died "then all have died".

On Christian apologetics I can only give Scriptural answers, Adam is viewed as a Son of God[Christ] and also as a race...indeed containing the whole of humanity...i.e "in Adam".This is also the Rabbinic viewpoint, that Adam is generic.From one's own exploration into truth there is only One Person in all possible worlds without end....Christ. Who is the SELF of all of us, if we stopped crucifying Him in our life, by that eternal supplanter: ego the old man.
Let me quote a very spiritual man who lived from 1401-1464 A.D. Nicholas of Cusa:

In all faces is seen the Face of faces, veiled in a billion riddles.......yet unveiled it is not seen, until,at last, above all faces we enter into a certain secret and mystical silence of a face.

and from another:

The Father uttered one Word, that Word is His Son, and He utters Him forever in everlasting silence, and in silence the world has to hear it.
St.John of the Cross 1542-1591

There were still a few beacons for Christ even in the middle ages.