What lead you to make the "Leap of Faith"

[Shawn Cuthill]

Shut up! I never knew Dave Steib was a Christian!!!! That's amazing.

I knew Barfield was, and Fernendez, and a couple of others on the 85 team, but I never knew Steib was. Awesome! Maybe I'll have to find his biography somewhere.

Ya, I think that those guys witnessed to him and he got saved. Pretty cool.

Check it out: http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseball ... b_Dave.stm

[Keith]

My good man Keith! I thought I'd never see you again after your retreat from our previous discussion - HERE. Great to see you again. I'll post again in a jiffy. My in-laws are here so the place is packed. Feel free to post in other areas.

Retreat?

You're giving yourself credit that you don't deserve. Why the hell should I go out and prove that the Bible is full of truth and that God loves me? This is problem #1 with your failure of a conversion process, and I'll refer to it as #1 from here on - I'm not trying to convince you that he doesn't exist - I'm posing questions that must be answered before I'll believe he gives a hoot about me. And you can't answer them for a myriad of reasons.

Let's recap my 10 points:

1) The Devil as you Christians know him - does not exist in the Old Testament.

You explain that the word "Satan" is found in the Bible, and I grant that. But, because you fell victim to #1, you thought you'd found a loophole in my argument and chose not to answer my contention altogether. Very good, Sean! Sophistry is a great way to introduce someone to faith!

The truth is that a Satan appears in the Old Testament, he's part of God's design. Satan means "accuser" and the O.T. Satan would show you your sins when you died. He didn't run Hell; he didn't tempt Eve and Adam; he doesn't poke you in the Ass with a pitchfork. The designers of Christianity decided they needed TWO beings to strike fear into the hearts of peons - God, and a Devil.

You dropped the ball. Shortsightedness? Lack of intellect? Laziness? Hypocrisy?

2) God hates shrimp.

I point to some text explaining that God hates shrimp and catfish and other things.

You explained that shrimp can be quite bad for me, because you're an M.D. and all - prick.

You know that water you're drinking? Long ago, a caveman might have pissed in it. But by virtue of intelligent design, systems and processes were put into place to cleanse it, so that you can eat it.

Shrimp digest things. Catfish digest things. The digestion process - it chemically breaks down whatever was eaten and uses it to make life.

Sean, a dog's rude person has less bacteria than your wife's mouth - but you kiss her, right?

3) Nowhere to be found. What the hell is wrong with you?

4) Jesus and India.

I claim that there is a strong correlation between Christian thought and Buddhist principles.

Your buddy Matt Cook, whose band I've seen in concert, by the way (they suck, they're everything I hate about Christianity), decided to tell me what I meant (he is ignorant, and did not know what I meant). Of course, he knows what he's talking about - his wife is brown (you racist)!

You completely miss the point. Where do you think Jesus was between the ages of 13 and 30? He was travelling and learning. What's more - Buddhism is as much a philosophy as a religion, so the fact that Christian philosophy is rooted in Buddhism doesn't affect Christianity as a religion.

You people are too narrow minded and daft to understand that.

5) Eden appears in Sumerian mythology.

You drop this completely. Loser.

6 & 7) Nowhere to be found.

8) Jesus' grandfather. Who was he?

I point out that the bible seems to be in confusion about this fact. And y ou link me to where this question has been answered. Good job!

9) Did God create men or beasts first?

You do a good job in finding a link that answers this.

10) God cursing children for the sins of their parents.

You drop this, too.


To summarize - you answer the smallest contentions, misunderstand most of the rest, and ignore the big ones.

And I retreated?

You suck.

[matt_the_cook]

Ahh, there's nothing like a good, respectful intelligent dialogue between people of differing views.



This, of course, is nothing like a good, respectful intelligent dialogue between people of differing views.




Also, I don't have a band that I know of. But I'm sorry that you think they suck.

I'm also a little confused how my having a brown wife makes me racist...

[TheRussian]

Despite your completely ungracious presentation, you somehow manage to bring out a few points worth considering, and some points in which Shawn has probably not invested the effort to think things through in a plenary discussion, i.e. a more instrumental angelology. It is clear that in the OT both Angels and "Satan" are instruments of God's will. It is still kind of clear that that thinking is still present in the New Testament.

However, your "God hates shrimp" is completely unnuanced thinking on your part. I have pointed out to Drew Costen on this forum that God does not hate shrimp, nor those who eat them, even as presented in the ceremonial law, but you need to read the Law far more charitably, as opposed to finding reasons to pit it against itself unmercifully.

I won't disabuse myself of the notion that you are not a fair-minded individual, so I will allow you to deal with these issues for now.

Cheers,
Борис Давидович Кеннеди

[drewcosten]

I'm not Shawn, but I wanted to discuss a few of your points:

1) The Devil as you Christians know him - does not exist in the Old Testament.

You explain that the word "Satan" is found in the Bible, and I grant that. But, because you fell victim to #1, you thought you'd found a loophole in my argument and chose not to answer my contention altogether. Very good, Sean! Sophistry is a great way to introduce someone to faith!

The truth is that a Satan appears in the Old Testament, he's part of God's design. Satan means "accuser" and the O.T. Satan would show you your sins when you died. He didn't run Hell; he didn't tempt Eve and Adam; he doesn't poke you in the Ass with a pitchfork. The designers of Christianity decided they needed TWO beings to strike fear into the hearts of peons - God, and a Devil.

You are correct here, from what I've researched, but so what? A) There's this concept known as progressive revelation in which not everything is spelled out crystal clear in the OT (heck, not everything is spelled out crystal clear in the NT). B) See the thread in the God Chat forum about Satan, not everyone takes Satan literally, even in the NT.

2) God hates shrimp.

I point to some text explaining that God hates shrimp and catfish and other things.

God's "hate" for shrimp is irrelevant as we are not under the Mosaic law. Not sure what your point was.

5) Eden appears in Sumerian mythology.

Not all Christians take the Genesis story literally. And again, so what?

9) Did God create men or beasts first?

You've got two major problems in general, Keith. 1) You're taking the Bible way too literally. Yes, when read literally there are all sorts of discrepencies, but a lot of it is likely meant to be read parabolically and metaphorically. 2) You need to calm down and stop being so insulting.

[meghan]

Whoo. Hostility aboundeth. Hey Peter, if you're still reading I'd like to answer your original question in serious reader's digest condensed version.

My childhood sucked the big one. My parents fought non-stop (my mom was physically abusive to my dad, borderline with me, and definitely had the emotional/verbal abuse going with all of us). And we even went to church! My mom's quite the spiritual seeker type and she is now into everything New-Age. Basically if it is anti-Christian, anti-Bible she's in for it. So, parent's divorced when I was 8--the breaking point was my sister being born from an adulterous relationship that wasn't discovered until my sister came out a different colour than the rest of us!

At school, I was the geeky hyper freak-girl so I hated school because it was just a constant teasing taunting time, and it sucked because I was such a little artsy fartsy that math and other subjects like it were a huge struggle for me. I loved reading but I hated english class because I didn't like writing stories because my hand really hurts when I write for any length of time. I rocked in spelling, geography and music tho! Then in grade six they diagnosed me ADD From then on, I got put in the "help" room which just made me a further target for my classmates.

So back to the divorce, me being the oldest in the house, I became the replacement target for my dad. Summer camps, going to grandma's or staying at a friend's house were like heaven for me because it got me away from my mom. Well, when I was 12 going on 13 I went to a Christian camp, heard the gospel (I already knew about God, Jesus and the Bible, and already believed it was true, but I had no understanding whatsoever) and I asked the Lord to be my Saviour one night that week. Well, I went home, and nothing changed, so life went back to the way it was before. I told my mom I had become a Christian, and she told me I already was and it was silly that I did it again. went back to camp next year, threw a stick in the fire to "rededicate myself" for the next 5 years or so. ffwd to highschool.

I had friends suddenly because I went to an artsy fartsy hight school with other freaks like myself. I still didn't like "school" and drinking & drugs (no sex, partly 'cause I hated my body and was scared to death of the idea of having sex--partly because I had a strange conviction that sex before marriage was wrong) became a part of my life. Through highschool I tried different churches but nothing really kept me interested. I was bitter, agnostic, and a very angry and negative person. I hated my family, hated much about myself, and hated much about school. Then when I was 17 or so I came to the end of myself. I went to see the movie twelve monkeys one weekend and when I got to school on Monday people were telling me I reminded them of Brad Pitt's character in the movie. Well, that got me to thinking. How did I want to be known or perceived by those aroung me? What was I really living for? At that time my bitterness and rage was so built up I actually thought about running away to T.O. to be a squeegie kid. I had camped all my life so I figured I could survive in the streets. That night I went home and prayed somehting like, "God if you will listen to me and you're still there, I need you to put someone in my life to show me how to live." Well, a few days later at school there was a guy in the Caf. who looked at me when I came into the Caf--he was sitting with some of my friends--and said, "are you a Christian?" his question totally took me off guard and I said, "I'm trying to be." Never seen the guy before. Well the bell rang and i went to class. At the end of the day, on the bus on the way home, that same guy was at the bus stop that took me on my final route home (my bus ride was 1.5 hours or so from the east side of Kitchener to the west side of Waterloo). We got to talking and it turned out he lived like a 2 min. walk from my house. ffwd. to a couple months later. I was going to a Baptist church with a girl I had met that really challenged my thinking about how a Christian should live. I was still smoking, drinking, living the way I had been all along but I was hiding it from my new Christian friends. Then one day, I was waiting for her and a few others to come pick me up, having a smoke before they came to get me since I knew I couldn't once I was with them--and it was like the Lord said to me, "Meghan, choose today--are you gonna serve ME or serve THAT life?" I didn't hear a voice, it was just a really strong impression on my heart. It's corny but I just said "Lord I choose you!" I chucked the rest of my cigarettes away, and although I still fell back a few times, at that point my life began to change. As soon as I was willing to surrender and do things on God's terms, He began to work on my heart and life--but not until I would give in to Him His way. That was almost 10 years ago now. My life has never been the same since. I learned to forgive my mom--which still isnt' easy sometimes--but I learned that if I don't forgive others I can't expect God to forgive me. I also don't blame God for my crappy childhood/adolescence because I know now that I can help kids that are going through similar circumstances. In the first chapter of 2 Corinthians it says,

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too. If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; and if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we suffer. Our hope for you is unshaken, for we know that as you share in our sufferings, you will also share in our comfort."


See, God either allows or causes everything to happen, and in terms of bad people it's an "allow" kind of thing. People do bad things because people are sinful creatures in need of grace. Even those who have found grace can still do bad things to eachother, but there's no excuse for it. So since I put my faith in Christ and gave the control of my life over to Him it hasn't been perfect by any standard, but I know that my future home is going to be in heaven for all eternity with God and I think I can go through anything in this life if my eternity is going to be perfect! Also just one thought for you, Jesus said that we have to have faith like a child to enter into His kingdom--maybe you could pray that God would give you the faith to believe in Him. Anyway, I hope that helps you at all.

[Keith]

This, of course, is nothing like a good, respectful intelligent dialogue between people of differing views.

This is how I have to treat Shawn to get him to do anything. My points are valid, and my "hostility" is justified. I gave Shawn a dozen chances to show that he wasn't a tool, and he failed me.

I'm also a little confused how my having a brown wife makes me racist...

Was I talking to Shawn in that last post? Yes.

Was I talking to you? No.

Do you possess the faculties and presence of mind to be of any use to me?

Let's look at empirical evidence. Most recently, you've seen your name in a post and decided that means you are the intended audience. Egocentrism? Inability to comprehend the typed word?

Before that you grossly misunderstood my questions about Jesus and India, but that's because you're ignorant, not necessarily dumb.

Now, since you've demonstrated that you have such a tough time with all this, I'll explain my racism statement.

When I first asked about Jesus and India, Shawn posted your response and made sure to mention that your wife was from that region or some such. Apparently, Shawn believes in genetic memories and all that hoopla.

You are not a racist. Shawn is. You are merely... well, you probably know how I feel about you.

[matt_the_cook]

This, of course, is nothing like a good, respectful intelligent dialogue between people of differing views.

This is how I have to treat Shawn to get him to do anything. My points are valid, and my "hostility" is justified. I gave Shawn a dozen chances to show that he wasn't a tool, and he failed me.

I'm also a little confused how my having a brown wife makes me racist...

Was I talking to Shawn in that last post? Yes.

Was I talking to you? No.

Do you possess the faculties and presence of mind to be of any use to me?

Let's look at empirical evidence. Most recently, you've seen your name in a post and decided that means you are the intended audience. Egocentrism? Inability to comprehend the typed word?

Before that you grossly misunderstood my questions about Jesus and India, but that's because you're ignorant, not necessarily dumb.

Now, since you've demonstrated that you have such a tough time with all this, I'll explain my racism statement.

When I first asked about Jesus and India, Shawn posted your response and made sure to mention that your wife was from that region or some such. Apparently, Shawn believes in genetic memories and all that hoopla.

You are not a racist. Shawn is. You are merely... well, you probably know how I feel about you.

Do you have anything really to add to the conversation here? Or are you just one of those guys who trolls through blogs and forums in order to bug the people there? I don't believe for a second that you're here for honest debate.

[Shawn Cuthill]

Here are the original posts on the blog from Keith:

http://athensblog.blogspot.com/2004_09_ ... chive.html

[Shawn Cuthill]

My good man Keith! I thought I'd never see you again after your retreat from our previous discussion - HERE. Great to see you again. I'll post again in a jiffy. My in-laws are here so the place is packed. Feel free to post in other areas.

Retreat?

You're giving yourself credit that you don't deserve.

Sorry Keith, I used the word "retreat" improperly. All I meant was that you said you'd never be back again, but I am glad you returned. I'm sorry that I dropped most of the questions, I did pick up a few, but I'm wondering if my answers on "the smallest contentions" have helped at all. Hopefully there are more folks on here who can help with the other questions.

We're here to help.

[Peter_W]

Thanks for your background Mehgan, I've been hoping to see a testimony like that.

I've been paying close attention to the ID & Testimony section because I am VERY interested in why people have become Christians... or the more basic reason why they believe there is a God (of some sort).

Most people have fallen into one of the following categories (that I've seen):

1 They were brought up in the religion
2 They decided that there must be intelligent design (therefore a higher power)
3 They attended some sort of religious school/camp
4 They studied the Bible and "felt" it was real
5 They simply liked the concept of Jesus and salvation

Rarely, I have seen such a "personal" indication that God might be trying to communicate, such as you have experienced.

As an Athiest, that is EXACTLY what I have been looking for. Some sort of "personal" interaction by God in our lives.

That is what I hope to experience some day.

While I am still an Athiest, since I haven't had that "personal" interaction, you have renewed the hope in me that I will some day experience it.

Thanks again,


Peter

[meghan]

Hey Peter,

You're welcome I'll be praying for you. I don't know how God works all the time, but I do know that He is a personal God and He desires a personal relationship with every one of His creatures. I will be praying that God would speak to you very clearly and personally in whatever manner He knows is best for you. Here are some verses that came to mind that I'd like to share with you. If you have a Bible or access to one, I would encourage you to read Acts 17 and see if that resounds with you at all. For an on-line copy you can go to:

http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=NASB

1Peter 5:6,7:
Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you.

Isaiah 66:1,2:
Thus says the LORD: "Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. Where is the house that you will build Me? And where is the place of My rest?

For all those things My hand has made, And all those things exist," Says the LORD. "But on this one will I look: On him who is poor and of a contrite spirit, And who trembles at My word.

Romans 10:9-13
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For
"whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

[Briana]

When I get a chance I'll tell you about my leap of faith.

[Shawn Cuthill]

Looking forward to it
Peter, do you mind if I move this to "ID & Testimony" section? Just wondering if it will be more appropriate there?

[Peter_W]

ShawnCuthill Wrote:

Peter, do you mind if I move this to "ID & Testimony" section? Just wondering if it will be more appropriate there?

Sure... wherever it may be useful.


Peter