SPUD'S Concerns About the Roman Catholic Church

[chadrack]

Conversation carried over from here:

http://bbc.quist.ca/bb/viewtopic.php?t=2076&start=30

1) Mary(the mother of our Lord) is worshiped as "The Queen(as if) of Heaven"
God ALONE has right to be worshiped....none other! That's blasphemy.
The Lord Jesus never refused worshipers of Himself, by the way...HE IS GOD! ("I am God, and there is none else") - read Heb. 1/ Rev. 19, etc.,etc., etc.
2) "There is one God, and ONE Mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus"... yet Rome teaches that, supposedly , Her "saints"(only God makes a saint) along with Mary(as if) make intercession with The Father for us.
"He(Christ alone) ever liveth to make intercession for them(all)" Heb. 7
3)Christ said specifically, "call no man your father upon the earth: for One is your Father , which is in Heaven." Every so called "vicar" is referred to as "father"(capitals omitted by myself). Papa himself is addressed as "the holy father"...what utter blasphemy!
(doesn't any of this seem rather peculiar to you?)
4) The "mass"(perhaps the most offensive thing to God, of all!) The Lord Jesus offered Himself "ONCE for all...without spot, unto God", and "after He had offered One Sacrifice for sins FOR EVER, sat down on the right hand of God." He cried, "IT IS FINISHED"(that is "PAID IN FULL"), and "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins". "He is the Propitiation for our sins"(Perfect Satisfaction of full payment made)...for the sins of the whole world as well, by the way! "He has perfected FOREVER, them that are sanctified"! How is it that any should suppose to "offer", week by week, of His (supposedly) Own Body... when only He ever could, and (bless God) has!? What blasphemy!
5) Works-based salvation. "Not of works"(Eph. 2)...."Not by works of righteousness"(Tit. 3)
6) Infant baptism(as a "right" of salvation)
7) Statues(graven images) for prayers/worship
8) Incense/"holy water"(for cleansing...?)
9) The "rosary" (vain repetitions)
10) "Purgatory" (Christ suffered ONCE, for all..."the Just for the unjust"!) He said of His own, "they will never perish."

Unfortunately, these kind of polemical, shotgun objections can not be answered as quickly as they can be fired. Definitions have to be given. Nuances have to be explained. False dichotomies have to be exposed. But I will do my best to succinctly answer these points from from a Catholic perspective. If any would like further information on these topics, let me know, for there is plenty of good material out there.

SPUD will likely dismiss this as more "rhetoric" from someone with their "head in the sand", but maybe others will benefit in some way.

Let me begin this with a quote:

There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church—which is, of course, quite a different thing. . . As a matter of fact, if we Catholics believed all of the untruths and lies which were said against the Church, we probably would hate the Church a thousand times more than they do.

1) Mary(the mother of our Lord) is worshiped as "The Queen(as if) of Heaven"
God ALONE has right to be worshiped....none other! That's blasphemy.
The Lord Jesus never refused worshipers of Himself, by the way...HE IS GOD! ("I am God, and there is none else") - read Heb. 1/ Rev. 19, etc.,etc., etc.

1. Catholics don't worship Mary as if she were God. It is forbidden, in fact.

One problem here is that we can't look at the honor we give someone as either: worship OR spiteful indifference. There are levels of honor. I can applaud at a piano recital, and though I am showing the worth of that performance, I am not worshipping the performance or the performer as if it were God.

That said, Catholics distinguish between honor and worship.

Latria: Worship that is due to God alone
Dulia: Honor that is due the Christians that are united with God in Heaven and are perfected in sanctity
Hyperdulia: The highest honor that goes to a created being belongs to Mary.

You can choose not to honor these distinctions. But I could do the same with your tradtion: Your church has "Bible" in the name. You have "Bible" conferences, and "Bible" studies. What about Jesus??? Seems like you worship the Bible more than Jesus. I even saw one of you Darbyites kneeling before a bible!!! Blasphemy! kneeling is for God ALONE! My descriptions are accurate, but I didn't make the necessary distinctions that you make in your tradition.

2) "There is one God, and ONE Mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus"... yet Rome teaches that, supposedly , Her "saints"(only God makes a saint) along with Mary(as if) make intercession with The Father for us.

2. Yes there is one mediator between God and man and his name is Jesus. I assume you ask your brothers to pray for you? Aren't they "making intercession" for you by praying for you?

You think Christians just stop praying for other Christians when they get to heaven? (James 5:16)

Can I also assume you follow the biblical practice of "praying" to the angels in Heaven? (Psalm 103:20-21, 148:1-2)

There is more you could attack in the catholic view of the communion of the saints, but you limit yourself to this intercession argument, so that's what I addressed.

"He(Christ alone) ever liveth to make intercession for them(all)" Heb. 7

Why do you get to put the word "alone" into the text wherever it pleases you?

3)Christ said specifically, "call no man your father upon the earth: for One is your Father , which is in Heaven." Every so called "vicar" is referred to as "father"(capitals omitted by myself). Papa himself is addressed as "the holy father"...what utter blasphemy!

3. Christ clearly says "call no man father". Silly Paul must have misunderstood him.

1 Corinthians 4:14-15 (New American Standard Bible)

I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. (emphasis mine)

Christ was using hyperbole to show how sinful and prideful the Jewish leaders of the day were.

4) The "mass"(perhaps the most offensive thing to God, of all!) The Lord Jesus offered Himself "ONCE for all...without spot, unto . . .

4. The Mass is not a re-sacrificing. It is the same sacrifice, made present. It is a re-presentation, in an unbloody manner, of the sacrifice of Calvary.

(1 Cor 11:24 KJV) ". . . this is my body, which is broken for you. . . For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. (emphasis mine)"

It is a remembrance, but it is also a showing, a proclamation, and a making present.

It is the greatest act of worship we can participate in here on earth, given to us by Christ Himself and with the entire heavenly host we proclaim:

Through him, with him, in him,
in the unity of the Holy Spirit,
all glory and honor is yours,
almighty Father,
God, for ever and ever.
AMEN.

The Mass is sublime and incomparable.

5) Works-based salvation. "Not of works"(Eph. 2)...."Not by works of righteousness"(Tit. 3)

5. Catholicism is not works-based. It is grace-based. Grace brings us to salvation and grace enables us to have faith and be faithful.

Catholics talk about salvation in different ways than most protestants:
We have been saved (at some point in the past)
We are being saved (currently)
We will be saved (at the final judgment)

Catholicism condemns pelagianism (earning your initial salvation by works) as heresy. However, because of God grace, he enables us to do good works, which are ultimately necessary for our final salvation. (James 2, Matt 25)

6) Infant baptism(as a "right" of salvation)

Did you mean a "rite"?

Baptism does not guarantee final salvation. But baptism does save you. (I Pet 3:21) But it saves you as the initial salvation within the framework I mentioned in the previous question. It does not guarantee your final salvation.

Maybe I'll get to objections 7-10 later.

[jonny]

Thankyou Chadrack. This is extremely productive and helpful.

As you might have noticed in earlier discssions, I firmly believe that many (but certainly not all) of the differences between Catholics and Protestants are based on misunderstandings of each others' positions. Many other differences matter much more in theory than they do in practice.

I have learned many helpful things from Catholics over the years. I'm not about to join the Catholic church, but I wish it well. In particular, I wish to see blessing for the arm of the church that wants to reach out to all true followers of Christ. And I'm sure that I wasn't the only Protestant in the world who prayed for your church when it was selecting a new leader after the death of the last pope.

One of the most influential Christians in my life was a Jordanian called Anton. I've since lost touch with him, but he was a deeply spiritual Syrian Orthodox believer (OK, not Catholic but quite close from many doctrinal perspectives) who taught me many things about living with the Lord from day to day - for example, he was the only person I've ever known to end every telephone conversation with a prayer.

Unlike some others in these forums, I firmly believe in learning through dialogue. I look forward to Part 2 of your post.

[chadrack]

Jonny,

Thanks for your post and your prayers.

Misunderstandings abound--you're certainly right about that. I'm tempted to just respond to misunderstandings by showing how I can skew PB distinctives into something hideous and wrong. It's not hard. It's Propaganda 101.

Meeting folks like your friend Anton are eye-opening for many of us. People that love Jesus and the Faith but don't use the same lingo we do? Wha? You mean "empty ritual" can actually be filled with whole-hearted, personal oblation to the Triune God? Surely not...

Jonny, have you ever read the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Though you might disagree with some of it's content, I think you'd find it an incredible document and I'd encourage you to browse through it sometime if you haven't. Evangelical scholar Mark Noll said "Evangelicals or confessional Protestants who pick up the Catechism are in for a treat. Sentences, paragraphs, whole pages sound as if they come from evangelical pulpits..." 'Course, Dr. Noll is teaching at Notre Dame now, so he's not to be trusted and will probably "Pope" anytime now.

[Elizabeth]

Dear Chadrack,

Did you see in the "Depravity of Man" thread what some brother said when I quoted the shorter catechism?

Elizabeth Bunting

[chadrack]

Dear Chadrack,

Did you see in the "Depravity of Man" thread what some brother said when I quoted the shorter catechism?

Elizabeth Bunting

No Creed But Christ!
(this is not a creed)

[Paul M. Blackmore]

There is such a plentitude of error within the Catholic Church that I would sooner set out to shovel out the whole city of Toronto after a major snowstorm, using only a spoon, than I would ever set myself to the task of straigtening out Catholic errors.

That being said, I full well recognize that there are many, many true believers, and therefore fellow-members of the body of Christ who are part of that organization. I do not feel compelled to straigten out Catholics, Presbyterians, Pentecostals or anyone else for that matter...........if I percieve that the person is on safe ground in the matter of personal Salvation. Ignorance and error do not automatically = personal dammnation in my books.

It has been my experience that people tend to defend the teachings of their particular "religious corporation", with an unreasonable, irrational passion; if they have the mistaken notion that their membership within that religious corporation is key to their personal salvation. The greatest question to be tackled in that sort of situation then, is "what be the true foundation of their personal salvation". It is better to spend time in that area IMO.

Catholics, Prebyterians, certain sects of Brethren, et al. who live under the mistaken notion that membership in their particular religious corporation, or adherence to their particular creed or style of worship, is the backbone of their personal Salvation, have much to learn from Brethren teachings in general.

If Brethren have done anything at all for the Universal Church, they have pointed out the vital distinction between membership within religious corporations, and true membership within the Body of Christ, or as some would say the Church Universal.

Regards

Paul M. Blackmore

[chadrack]

. . .I would sooner set out to shovel out the whole city of Toronto after a major snowstorm, using only a spoon, than I would ever set myself to the task of straigtening out Catholic errors.

Fair enough, Paul. The problem is that many supposed Catholic errors are things Catholicism doesn't teach. I'm not saying you believe these, but there are many protestants who are surprised to learn that they've been fed a bunch of hooey about Catholicism (and about the "early church") And as they hear Catholic beliefs explained rationally and with support of Holy Scripture and the writings of the earliest Christians, they sometimes, change their mind about them.

It has been my experience that people tend to defend the teachings of their particular "religious corporation", with an unreasonable, irrational passion; if they have the mistaken notion that their membership within that religious corporation is key to their personal salvation.

Paul, calling particular Churches and ecclesial communities that are large and organized "Religious Corporations" is like me calling the Plymouth Brethren Assemblies "Poorly-Run Small Businesses".

[SPUD]

There is such a plentitude of error within the Catholic Church that I would sooner set out to shovel out the whole city of Toronto after a major snowstorm, using only a spoon, than I would ever set myself to the task of straigtening out Catholic errors.

That being said, I full well recognize that there are many, many true believers, and therefore fellow-members of the body of Christ who are part of that organization. I do not feel compelled to straigten out Catholics, Presbyterians, Pentecostals or anyone else for that matter...........if I percieve that the person is on safe ground in the matter of personal Salvation. Ignorance and error do not automatically = personal dammnation in my books.

Amen and amen.
However, I wouldn't suggest "many, many"....more like "some", if any, but for any(individual or organization) to present/preach "any other gospel...than that which we have preached unto you", says Paul, then there's a dire warning served..."let him be accursed". The Catholic Church has escorted untold millions to everlasting perdition through thier errors and lies, as well untold thousands of The Lord's people to martyrdom over the last millenia and then some. She's "drunken with the blood of martyrs." I'm not about to patronize any who are yet blinded through Her deception....

[a beautiful soul]

Peace

[SPUD]

The brethren and the rest of Evangelical Christianity need a reality check.

mg

D'ya think?
I'm making no defense for PB or anyone else. I'm making a defense for The Gospel....You've got a Bible....since there is only One Faith of Christ, and you present yourself as knowing it(Him), why wouldn't you be compelled to take a stand for your Lord's sake rather than mocking those that would?
...Or, are you as the (so called) moderators of this forum who, evidently can't(won't) make a determination of what sort the tree is "by it's fruit"?
My Lord says, "...by thier fruits ye shall know them"...as well, "try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." (that's the language of judgement [discernment]..and that's a charge from God to you and me!)
Don't you know The Truth enough to judge a blatant lie when you see one?
Listen to what God says through John,

"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ,
HATH NOT GOD."....that's a call for judgement/trial/discernment on your part!
Don't talk to me about easy-believism!...you've got to be kidding me!
...are you for real?

Chadrack charges me with "getting to insert the word "alone" into the text, whenever I want." Those insertions are merely commentary of the painfully obvious. How else, for instance, would you gather from John14:6 that He(Christ) is not "The(only)Way, The(only)Truth, and The(only)Life", when He says that,"no man cometh unto The Father, but by Me."?
....please!..at least make it a challenge!

"You do err", sir, in "not knowing the Scriptures." The Scriptures! Now there's a Source worth quoting! How is at that with so many of the submissions to this post there is little or nothing to comment, with God's Word as basis?...(without the foolishness of plainly pathetic submissions that are extracted altogether out of obvious context, so as to decieve[the devil hasn't changed his tactic one little bit), which hardly merit any kind of a response to begin with!)
..You can do better than that, surely Chadrack.

"Search the Scriptures; for in them ye THINK ye have eternal life", Christ says,"for they are they which testify of ME."

The same is as much a charge for the rest of you claiming to know The Lord, yet seem so inept(more likely unwilling) to take a stand for Christ's sake....but we couldn't do that, dearest mg(I'm sure), could we? That would be passing judgement....spare me, please!

[a beautiful soul]

Peace

[Elizabeth]

...Or, are you as the (so called) moderators of this forum who, evidently can't(won't) make a determination of what sort the tree is "by it's fruit"?

Dear Bro. Spud,

I submit that you don't personally know any of the trees here on this forum. These forums are not the best medium in which to express ideas and thoughts. It is quite easy to misunderstand people and to miss their meaning.

When you are suggesting that someone such as MG does not know the scriptures and is not a Christian, you are getting it all wrong.

There is nobody, moderator or otherwise, who has labelled you as an unbeliever, non-Christian or someone who does not know the scriptures.

Elizabeth Bunting

[SPUD]

Dear Bro. Spud,

I submit that you don't personally know any of the trees here on this forum. These forums are not the best medium in which to express ideas and thoughts. It is quite easy to misunderstand people and to miss their meaning.
Elizabeth

Can't you tell "of what sort" a tree is by the fruits? If one was to write a book of blasphemous statements, wouldn't you be able to determine "of what sort" they are, having never met them? You should. The Test through which we "try" these spirits is The Word of God Himself.
How'bout it, Elizabeth?

When you are suggesting that someone such as MG does not know the scriptures and is not a Christian, you are getting it all wrong.
Elizabeth

There was never any such suggestion made(read it again). I'm challenging the likes of yourself, for instance, to put your money where your mouth is(since you profess to be a real believer), and take a stand for your Lord yourself....instead of coddling decievers, and mocking those that would challenge them.

There is nobody, moderator or otherwise, who has labelled you as an unbeliever, non-Christian or someone who does not know the scriptures.
Elizabeth Bunting

I've never had that impression or expressed that as from myself, but if you're insinuating that we're not to make determinations of what sort the "fruit" is for the doctrine being expressed, think again...2John. 9 - 1John. 4:1 - Gal. 1:8,9 - etc.etc. make this abundantly clear.

[chadrack]

7) Statues(graven images) for prayers/worship
8) Incense/"holy water"(for cleansing...?)
9) The "rosary" (vain repetitions)
10) "Purgatory" (Christ suffered ONCE, for all..."the Just for the unjust"!) He said of His own, "they will never perish."

7. Catholics have statues. They do not worship the statues as gods(that would make them idols). The statues are a reminder of the example of the person they represent. When I'm away from my wife, kissing her picture might look like worship, but it would not be worship.

from Scripture Catholic (http://www.scripturecatholic.com/sacramentals.html):

Deut. 5:8 - God's commandment "thou shall not make a graven image" is entirely connected to the worship of false gods. God does not prohibit images to be used in worship, but He prohibits the images themselves to be worshiped.

Exodus 25:18-22; 26:1,31 - for example, God commands the making of the image of a golden cherubim. This heavenly image, of course, is not worshiped by the Israelites. Instead, the image disposes their minds to the supernatural and draws them to God.

Num. 21:8-9 - God also commands the making of the bronze serpent. The image of the bronze serpent is not an idol to be worshiped, but an article that lifts the mind to the supernatural.

Col. 1:15 - the only image of God that Catholics worship is Jesus Christ, who is the "image" (Greek "eikon") of the invisible God.

8. Incense and water set aside for religious use is explicitly biblical and was never abrogated in the NT.

John 13:4-10. Jesus washes the disciples feet with water. It's "holy" because it's been set apart for a specific, liturgical purpose.

9. The rosary is somewhat repetitious, but it is not vain. Not all repetitions are vain. Matthew 26:44 (NIV) "So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing." And Rev. 4:8 where those Cherubim pray a lot like Catholics.

10. Yes Christ suffered for us. He paid the price for our redemption. Yet we still suffer. Yet we are still called to "take up our cross" (hint: this doesn't just mean "work hard").

Purgatory has nothing to do with perishing. Purgatory is the process by which the sanctification of the elect is made complete after death and before we see the face of God. Purgatory is not necessarily a place, but a process and only a process for those that will enter heaven. It is very similar to the "judgement of works" concept that many see in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15.

further reading on purgatory:[url]
http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/how2purg.htm[/url]

[SPUD]

Did you mean a "rite"?

Right. I should have meant to write "rite" right. Right?

he enables us to do good works, which are ultimately necessary for our final salvation (James 2/Matt 25)

The subject of James 2 is, "faith without works"(evidence of real faith),
and that's simply the whole matter. Is the "professing" believer for real if there are no signs of real Life in him/her? Can a dead tree produce any fruit? Anyone can "say" they believe, but the proof is evidenced through works/fruits....signs of genuine life(which are only because of His work of regeneration in the heart of a real child of God, in the first place)....and so the so-called (professed) "faith" of a man in whom are no evidences of God's Life isn't for real, and therefore (that) "faith"...phony faith...can't save him. That's why we read that even "the devils believe".
The faith through which we(real believers)are saved (Eph.2:8,9 - Rom.5:1 _etc. etc.), is that faith that is only evidenced by works, not "obtained" with works.
Matt. 25?....what of it, as pertains to salvation (supposedly, ultimately through works)?

Chadrack, (I'm not writing in any kind of trivial, disrespectfull tone) the "gospel" you are presenting is not the same Gospel of God's Book. My Saviour cried "It is FINISHED!"...(Paid in full), and "DONE" is the Work that saves. There is nothing that any could ever add to It(His Redemptive work on the Cross....His Blood!), or nothing that any could ever take away. All we've left to do is RECIEVE that Grace, through accepting Christ by faith(The Scriptures...Rom.10:17). How could we ever improve on what Christ has done, when He has "by Himself, purged our(the believer's) sins"? How would any dare suppose they need to add anything to His completed Work, if they've really trusted Him for salvation?
Listen to what the Scripture says:
"This poor man cried, and The Lord heard him and saved him..."
"Whosever shall call upon The Name of The Lord shall be saved."

Have you ever "called" on His Name(Jesus means "Salvation"), out of your poverty and need, or do you suppose to ultimately earn your own way into God's Heaven? You'll never do it. You can do nothing to save yourself. God says, "Repent, and believe the Gospel"...the real Gospel.