What role will the U.S. play in Eschatology...if any?

[Utility]

Peace

[meghan]

I've wondered the same thing myself. This continent is not mentioned in Revelation at all, as far as we know. 1/3 of the world's fresh water is in Canada though. It makes you wonder if wormwood is destined for us Canucks!

[Jezreel]

I've always been taught that the US is what Revelation calls "Babylon". She sits on many waters - many people say this intends to say "culturally diverse" - and the US is certainly culturally diverse.

with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality.

Let's put it this way - there's a lot of immorality all over the place, but the immorality in America wins, in my opinion.

and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality....

And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, because no one buys their cargoes any more-- cargoes of gold and silver and precious stones and pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet, and every kind of citron wood and every article of ivory and every article made from very costly wood and bronze and iron and marble, and cinnamon and spice and incense and perfume and frankincense and wine and olive oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep, and cargoes of horses and chariots and slaves and human lives.

The US is a hub for all kinds of merchants - think of how many countries create products to sell in the US, or how many companies in the US delegate production to other countries...

As much as the world supposedly hates the US, they're gonna miss it if/when its gone, am I right? No nation stands forever.

My two cents.

[Rey]

I'm not sure it even matters.

[drewcosten]

I'm not sure it even matters.

This I'd agree with. But then I'm not convinced that reading Revelation in the futurist sense is necessarily the correct way.

[TPM]

What role will America play?

Joel 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

[Utility]

Peace

[IHA]

Following up on Jezreel's scomments, the following is from John Parsons, Administrator at Hebrew4christians.com, posted on the forum there. That forum requires membership. Applicants are required to agree to a lenghty doctrinal statement. Even though I do not agree with all of John's conclusions, I am reproducing his entire post here for open discussion:

[ Note: As a result of the USA war with Iraq (that began March 19, 2003), the USA is now the sovereign ruling power over the Bible's literal city of Babylon, which is located in Iraq. Therefore, it can now be said that if the USA is judged (falls), then "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen" ( Rev 14:8, Rev 18:2), with the UN/USA (Mystery, Babylon) being the 1st "is fallen," and later the Bible's literal city of Babylon (the Great) being the 2nd "is fallen." ]

WHAT THE PROPHETS SAID ABOUT BABYLON

1. Babylon would be an END TIME GREAT NATION ( Rev 17-18; Isa 13:6 ).

2. Babylon would have a huge seaport city within its borders ( Rev 18:17).

3. The Great City Babylon is the home of a world government attempt ( Rev 17:18).

4. The Great City Babylon would be the economic nerve center of the world ( Rev 18:3).

5. Babylon would be the center of a one world Luciferian religious movement ( Jer 51:44).

6. Babylon would be the center for the move to a global economic order ( Rev 13:16).

BABYLON THE NATION

1. Babylon would be the youngest and greatest of the end time nations ( Jer 50:12).

2. Babylon would the QUEEN AMONG THE NATIONS ( Isa 47:5,7; Rev 18:7).

3. Babylon would be the most powerful nation in the world ( Isa 47, Jer 50-51, Rev 18).

4. Babylon would be the HAMMER OF THE WHOLE EARTH ( Jer 50:23; Rev 18:23 ).

5. Babylon is called a lady, and has the symbol of the Lady ( Isa 47:7-9 ).

6. Babylon would be the praise of the WHOLE EARTH ( Jer 51:41).

7. Babylon is center of world trade ( Jer 51:44; Rev 17:18; Rev 18:19).

8. Babylon would grow to be the richest nation in the world ( Rev 18:3,7,19,23).

9. All nations that traded with Babylon would grow rich ( Rev 18:3).

10. The merchants of Babylon were the GREAT MEN OF THE EARTH
( Rev 18:23).

11. Babylon is a huge nation, with lands, cities, and great wealth (implied throughout).

12. Babylon is nation "peeled", or timbered, a land of open fields ( Isa 18:2).

13. Babylon is land quartered by mighty rivers ( Isa 18:2).

14. Babylon is a land that is measured out, and populated throughout ( Isa 18:2).

15. Babylon destroys her own land, with pollution and waste ( Isa 14:20, Isa 18:2,7).

16. Babylon is a land rich in mineral wealth ( Jer 51:13).

17. Babylon is a the leading agricultural nation of the world ( Jer 50-51; Rev 18).

18. Babylon is the leading exporting nation in the world ( Jer 51:13; Rev 18).

19. Babylon is the leading importing nation of the entire world. ( Jer 50-51; Rev 18).

20. Babylon is a nation filled with warehouses and granaries ( Jer 50:26).

21. Babylon is the leading INDUSTRIAL NATION OF THE WORLD
( Isa 13, Isa 47, Jer 50-51; Rev 18).

22. Babylon is noted for her horses ( Jer 50:37).

23. Babylon is noted for her cattle, sheep and other livestock ( Jer 50:26-27; Rev 18:13).

24. Babylon is noted for her fine flour and mill operations ( Rev 18:13).

25. Babylon is a nation of farmers and harvests huge crops ( Jer 50:16,26,27).

26. Babylon is a huge exporter of MUSIC ( Rev 18:22).

27. Babylon's musicians are known around the world ( Rev 18:22)

28. Babylon has a huge aviation program ( Isa 14:13-14; Jer 51:53; Hab 1:6-10).

29. Babylon's skies are filled with the whisper of aircraft wings (Isa 18:1; Jer 51:53).

30. Babylon has a huge space industry, has "mounted up to the heavens" (Jer 51:53).

31. Babylon fortifies her skies with a huge military aviation program (Jer 51:53).

32. Babylon is portrayed as a leading in high tech weapons and abilities ( Jer 51:53; Hab 1:6-10; implied throughout).

33. Babylon is a nation filled with warm water seaports ( Rev 18:17-19).

34. Babylon is a coastal nation and sits upon MANY WATERS ( Jer 51:13).

35. Babylon trades with all who have ships in the sea year round ( Rev 18:17-18).

36. Babylon is nation filled with a "mingled" people ( Jer 50:37).

37. Babylon is a SINGULAR NATION founded upon OUT OF MANY, ONE ( Isa 13, Isa 47, Jer 50-51, Hab 1).

38. Babylon is a REPUBLIC or a DEMOCRACY, it is ruled by many counsels (Isa 47:13).

39. Babylon's governmental system breaks down ( Isa 47:13).

40. Babylon is bogged down with deliberations and cannot govern properly
( Isa 47:13).

41. Babylon's leaders use astrology, seers and mystics for guidance ( Isa 47:13; Rev 18:2).

42. Babylon labored in the occult from her very inception ( Isa 47:12).

43. Babylon falls to the occult just before her end by nuclear fire ( Rev 18:2)

44. Babylon was born as a CHRISTIAN NATION ( Jer 50:12).

45. Babylon turns upon its heritage and destroys it all in the end ( Jer 50:11).

46. Babylon's Christian leaders lead their flock astray in prophecy and salvation ( Jer 50:6; implied Rev 18:2).

47. Babylon's Christian leaders are "strangers" in the Lord Houses of Worship ( Jer 51:51).

48. The people of Babylon are deep into astrology and spiritism ( Isa 47:12; Rev 18:2).

49. Babylon becomes the home of all antichrist religions in the world ( Rev 18:2).

50. Babylon is a nation of religious confusion ( Isa 47:12-13).

51. Babylon turns upon its own people and imprisons and slays them by millions ( Jer 50:7,33; Jer 51:35; 39; Dan 7:25; Rev 13:7; Rev 17:6; Rev 18:24).

52. Babylon sets of detention centers for Jews and Christians and rounds them up for extermination ( Jer 50:7,33; Jer 51:35,49; Rev 17:6; Rev 18:24).

53. Babylon has a mother nation that remains in existence from her birth to death ( Jer 50: 12).

54. The mother of Babylon has the symbol of the LION ( Dan7:4; Eze 38:13; Jer 51:38; Psalms 17:12).

55. The mother of Babylon will rule over her daughter her entire life ( Dan 7:4; Jer 50:12).

56. The mother of Babylon will be a state of major decline as the end nears ( Jer 50:12).

57. Babylon is considered to be a lion's whelp ( Eze 38:13; Jer 51:38).

58. Babylon will have the symbol of the EAGLE and builds her nest in the stars ( Dan 7:4 EAGLE WINGS; Isa 14:13-14; Jer 51:53).

59. Babylon turns totally antichrist and is the leading antichrist power at the end ( Rev 18:2; Isa 14:4-6).

60. THE KING OF BABYLON is called LUCIFER, the ANTICHRIST ( Isa 14:4-6).

61. The King of Babylon will rule from THE GREAT CITY BABYLON ( Isa 14:4-6; Rev 17: 18).

62. A world government entity will rise up to rule the world from BABYLON THE CITY ( Isa 14; Hab 2, Rev 13, Rev 17,18).

63. This world entity will be a diverse entity, different than all other ruling bodies of the world ( Dan 7:7, 23).

64. This entity will be a TREATY POWER ENTITY ( Dan 7:7,23 DIVERSE).

65. This entity will rise up and use the military power of Babylon the nation to RULE THE WORLD ( Isa 14:4-6; Hab 1 & 2, Rev 13,17).

66. Babylon is a huge producer and exporter of automobiles ( Jer 50:37; Rev 18:13).

67. Babylon is a nation of CRAFTSMEN, experts in their trade ( Jer 50-51, Rev 18:22).

68. Babylon is noted for her jewelry of gold and silver ( Rev 18:22).

69. Babylon is a huge importer and exporter of spices ( Rev 18:13).

70. Babylon is a huge exporter of fine marble products ( Rev 18:22).

71. Babylon is noted for her iron and steel production ( Rev 18:12).

72. Babylon has huge corporations that have bases around the world (Rev 18:23, implied throughout)

73. Babylon is a nation of higher education and learning ( Isa 47:10, implied throughout).

74. Babylon is a nation with a GREAT VOICE in world affairs ( Jer 51:55)

75. Babylon is a VIRGIN NATION, untouched by major war ( Isa 47:1).

76. Babylon has a vast military machine ( Jer 50:36; Jer 51:30; Hab 1,2, Rev 13:4).

77. Babylon will be instrumental in the setting up of Israel in the Middle East, and is the home of God's people ( Jer 50:47; Jer 51:45).

78. Babylon will have a major enemy to her north ( Jer 50:3, 9, 41).

79. Babylon's enemy will lie on the opposite side of the world, over the poles ( Isa 13:5)

80. The enemy of Babylon will be a FEDERAL OF NATIONS ( Jer 50:9).

81. The enemy of Babylon will be largely Moslem in make-up ( Jer 50:17; Rev 17:16; Psalms 83:5-12).

82. The enemy of Babylon will have nuclear missiles capable of reaching Babylon ( Jer 50:9, 14,; Rev 18:8, 18).

83. The enemy of Babylon will be noted for her cruelty ( Isa 13-14, Jer 50-51, Rev 17-18).

84. The enemy of Babylon will also have a huge aviation military machine
( Jer 50:9,14, Rev 18:8, 18 implied throughout).

85. The enemy of Babylon will come into Babylon unnoticed ( Isa 47:11, Jer 50:24; 51:2,14).

86. Babylon will be filled with her enemies brought in under the guise of peace ( Dan 11:21).

87. Babylon will have all of her borders cut off, and there will be no way of escape ( Jer 50:28; Jer 51:32).

88. Babylon will be destroyed by nuclear fire (Implied throughout)

89. Babylon is land vast land with huge cities, towns and villages throughout (Implied throughout).

90. Babylon will have been a huge missionary nation for Jesus Christ ( Jer 50:11; Jer 51:7).

91. Babylon would be a home to multitudes of Jews who leave ( Jer 50:4-6,8; Jer 51:6,45)

92. The people of Babylon would not know their true identity ( Jer 50:6, implied throughout).

93. The people of Babylon would think they are God's elect and eternal ( Isa 47:7-8, Rev 18:7).

94. The people of Babylon would enjoy the highest standard of living in the world ( Rev 18:7).

95. The people of Babylon would grow mad upon their idols ( Jer 50:2,38; Hab 2:18).

96. The people of Babylon would go into deep sins of all kinds ( Rev 18:5).

97. The nation Babylon dwells carelessly before the Lord ( Isa 47:8).

98. Babylon becomes proud, haughty, and does not consider her end ( Isa 47:7-8).

99. Babylon deals in the occult, in sorceries and drugs ( Isa 47:9, 12; Rev 18:23)

These are but a few of the many parameters listed to help us identify this last great nation that the Lord calls BABYLON THE GREAT. America does now, or is in the process of fulfilling each and every one of them. No other nation upon the face of the earth can fulfill these parameters. AMERICA IS BABYLON THE GREAT. There would likewise be a series of SIGNS that would would begin to emerge that would give BIRTH TO, and WATCH THE RISE OF, as well as THE FALL OF AMERICA-BABYLON.

For more: http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/ha ... bylon4.htm
See also:
http://cnview.com/bible_study/a_study_o ... abylon.htm
http://cnview.com/bible_study/a_study_o ... lusion.htm
http://cnview.com/bible_study/a_study_o ... rt_two.htm
http://www.hebroots.com/babylon.html#Babylon

[Jezreel]

Wow. That's quite the post. I'll have to send him a note (hebrew4christians possibly the most well-written online study of Hebrew that I've seen yet)

Here's a question that came to mind: if the US is Babylon (which is what I've come to think - I haven't heard any better reasoning for who/what Babylon is) then when God calls us out of her, what would that entail? Leaving the country? Or not associating oneself with the nation?

[Utility]

Peace

[Jezreel]

Okay so, then that would mean that when God calls us to "come out of her", that's when we're raptured, according to that view... right?

[IHA]

In 2Co.6:17-18, the apostle connects a similar thought with separation from worldly associations.

2 Cor 6:17-18 (JND) Wherefore come out from the midst of them, and be separated, saith the Lord, and touch not what is unclean, and *I* will receive you; and I will be to you for a Father, and ye shall be to me for sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

If christians are not interested in following the Biblical prescription to live in separation from worldliness, why would they be motivated to come out of Babylon if they percieved they resided with it?

Assembly expositors have generally held the the dispensational view that Babylon of Reverlation 17 & 18 is European in the form of a revived Roman Empire in the Tribulation, ruled by the Beast.

The question is, when is it proper to come out of Babylon?

Rev 18:4-8 (JND) And I heard another voice out of the heaven saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye have not fellowship in her sins, and that ye do not receive of her plagues: for her sins have been heaped on one another up to the heaven, and God has remembered her unrighteousnesses. Recompense her even as she has recompensed; and double to her double, according to her works. In the cup which she has mixed, mix to her double. So much as she has glorified herself and lived luxuriously, so much torment and grief give to her. Because she says in her heart, I sit a queen, and I am not a widow; and I shall in no wise see grief: for this reason in one day shall her plagues come, death and grief and famine, and she shall be burnt with fire; for strong is the Lord God who has judged her.

The early assembly expositors in England and on the Contenent percieved Europe was the place. But the European governmnet was not yet that of the Beast. Neither were they looking for the Beast. So they did not entertain thoughts of comming out by moving away to another land.

Even so today as we see the stage being set and the end times nigh upon us, we might perceive we live in the Babylon of Rev.17. Nevertheless, we look not for the Beast, nor for the Time of Jacob's Trouble. Instead we look for the Lord Jesus Christ to come for His bride:

1 Thess 5:1-10 (JND) But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that ye should be written to, for ye know perfectly well yourselves, that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief by night. When they may say, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction comes upon them, as travail upon her that is with child; and they shall in no wise escape. But *ye*, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you as a thief: for all *ye* are sons of light and sons of day; we are not of night nor of darkness. So then do not let us sleep as the rest do, but let us watch and be sober; for they that sleep sleep by night, and they that drink drink by night; but *we* being of the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as helmet the hope of salvation; because God has not set us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who has died for us, that whether we may be watching or sleep, we may live together with him.


שלום (Shalom), IHA

[TPM]

My point was that the US is just like all Gentile nations. It will one day join the world and turn against Israel. At that time, it will be judged like all the other nations of the world for it's great sin.

Until then, I see nothing regarding the US in prophecy.

[Utility]

Peace

[Jezreel]

I'm actually quite certain that there will be signs to show when it will be that Christ is coming - even if I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture (I'm pre-wrath, if anything)

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Of course we are to look to Christ, no matter what, and we are not to follow those into the desert who tell us that the Christ has come, but that does not mean that there aren't signs that precede his coming. There were signs that came prior to his first coming as our Lamb. There are always signs because God will always provide a way out to those who look to Him.